WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.560 --> 00:00:06.930 Geetha Nandikotkur: Hi, I'm Geetha Nandikotkur, managing 2 00:00:06.930 --> 00:00:10.080 editor for Asia and Middle East with Information Security Media 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:14.700 Group. I'm pleased to invite Dr. Pavan Duggal, advocate, Supreme 4 00:00:14.700 --> 00:00:17.820 Court of India, and Chairman International Commission for 5 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:22.800 cyber law, to the ISMG studio today to discuss some of his 6 00:00:22.830 --> 00:00:25.800 accomplishments as a cybersecurity practitioner. 7 00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:28.080 Thanks, Pavan, for joining us today. 8 00:00:28.110 --> 00:00:29.820 Pavan Duggal: Thanks, Geetha, for having me. It's a pleasure 9 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:30.870 to be with you on your show. 10 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:33.600 Geetha Nandikotkur: Thank you, same here to have you with us. 11 00:00:34.050 --> 00:00:36.750 Pavan, you have been an accomplished cyber law 12 00:00:36.750 --> 00:00:40.950 practitioner. So can you walk us through your journey, career 13 00:00:40.950 --> 00:00:41.700 trajectory? 14 00:00:41.750 --> 00:00:46.190 Pavan Duggal: Well, my journey has been a very different kind 15 00:00:46.190 --> 00:00:49.790 of a journey. You didn't anticipate, when you begin your 16 00:00:49.820 --> 00:00:53.180 life as a normal civil and corporate lawyer. You think of a 17 00:00:53.330 --> 00:00:56.630 distinctive area how you will go in law. Little did you realize 18 00:00:56.630 --> 00:00:59.840 that early 1990s, you'll get access to some technology 19 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:03.380 clients, you will get interested in technology. Little did you 20 00:01:03.380 --> 00:01:06.920 realize, 1995, internet is going to be introduced to the country. 21 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:10.160 You get interested in the cyber legal aspects of the internet, 22 00:01:10.490 --> 00:01:13.130 and little did you realize that you start your own journey in 23 00:01:13.130 --> 00:01:17.240 cyber law. We thought it was a sector-specific journey. Little 24 00:01:17.240 --> 00:01:19.820 did we realize that this particular journey, is today, 25 00:01:19.820 --> 00:01:22.910 over a period of time, going to evolve into a very complex but 26 00:01:22.910 --> 00:01:26.990 very exciting and fascinating journey. So I've seen cyber law 27 00:01:26.990 --> 00:01:30.890 grow as a discipline from just a small baby discipline to mother 28 00:01:30.890 --> 00:01:34.190 discipline, where now distinctive sub-disciplines are 29 00:01:34.190 --> 00:01:37.940 evolving under cyber law. So whether it's cybersecurity law, 30 00:01:37.940 --> 00:01:41.090 cybercrime law, artificial intelligence law, blockchain 31 00:01:41.090 --> 00:01:45.320 law, or IoT law, as far as my journey is concerned, I consider 32 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:48.890 myself still to be a student. Because, you know, when you're 33 00:01:48.890 --> 00:01:52.280 in law, you're always told that you must keep on reading. But 34 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:55.940 when you're in cyber law, you're always told one thing that every 35 00:01:55.940 --> 00:01:59.120 day is a new day. And because technology is evolving, the law 36 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.940 has to catch up. So this constant law and legal 37 00:02:01.940 --> 00:02:05.330 frameworks and legal provisions and principles, which are 38 00:02:05.330 --> 00:02:08.810 evolving the passes of time, so you can never rest for a day and 39 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:11.630 say, look, I've done enough, I know enough. You don't know 40 00:02:11.630 --> 00:02:14.210 anything. Technology tells you every eight hours that you 41 00:02:14.210 --> 00:02:16.700 sleep, I have moved substantially forward. And 42 00:02:16.700 --> 00:02:19.610 that's the reason what I learned that you must constantly keep on 43 00:02:19.820 --> 00:02:23.840 updating your skill sets on technology law, because world 44 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.840 over, things are moving very rapidly. A lot of things have 45 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.530 happened in my career. And I was the counsel for India's first 46 00:02:30.530 --> 00:02:34.580 cybercrime conviction, way back in 2003. I've been advising the 47 00:02:34.580 --> 00:02:36.860 Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology, 48 00:02:37.130 --> 00:02:40.580 Government of India, for the last more than two decades. Way 49 00:02:40.580 --> 00:02:44.540 back in 2015, when the world was talking in different directions 50 00:02:44.720 --> 00:02:49.190 at the Business Forum, I had to moderate, in Geneva, the idea of 51 00:02:49.370 --> 00:02:52.910 the need for having in place an international convention on 52 00:02:52.910 --> 00:02:56.270 cyber law and cybersecurity. The idea was a bit early in its 53 00:02:56.270 --> 00:03:00.860 time, so the nation states were not able to bite it. Come 2022, 54 00:03:01.040 --> 00:03:05.030 and you find the United Nations setting up a UN ad hoc committee 55 00:03:05.060 --> 00:03:08.420 on cybercrime, which is now elaborating on a new convention 56 00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:12.320 to regulate the misuse of ICTs for criminal purposes. So I 57 00:03:12.320 --> 00:03:15.440 think each day is a fantastic new journey day. And I think, 58 00:03:15.470 --> 00:03:18.170 each day has to be relished to the fullest extent possible. 59 00:03:18.660 --> 00:03:22.200 Geetha Nandikotkur: Okay, Pavan, that's been a really interesting 60 00:03:22.200 --> 00:03:25.620 journey, and you are associated with across the spectrum of 61 00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:29.670 cyber law and cybersecurity. So coming back to the 62 00:03:29.670 --> 00:03:33.210 cybersecurity, the relevance of cybersecurity in the cyber law. 63 00:03:33.720 --> 00:03:36.690 Can you discuss some of your accomplishments that you cherish 64 00:03:36.690 --> 00:03:37.320 most? 65 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.250 Pavan Duggal: Well, I cherish some things more than others. 66 00:03:41.250 --> 00:03:45.510 Way back in 1998, The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names 67 00:03:45.510 --> 00:03:49.350 and Numbers got formed. That was one of the earliest days, and I 68 00:03:49.350 --> 00:03:53.820 got involved with the formation of ICANN, I was part of the 69 00:03:53.820 --> 00:03:56.670 membership implementation taskforce, and the nominating 70 00:03:56.670 --> 00:03:59.760 committee of ICANN in those early days. I cherish the time 71 00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:02.370 when the uniform domain name dispute resolution policy had 72 00:04:02.370 --> 00:04:08.070 come in, 1999. In how I became an arbitrator, or kind of a 73 00:04:08.670 --> 00:04:11.880 service provider, with the WIPO, or the World Intellectual 74 00:04:11.880 --> 00:04:16.830 Property organization's Center for Arbitration and decided 75 00:04:16.830 --> 00:04:20.640 various interesting domain name disputes. I cherish the time 76 00:04:20.850 --> 00:04:25.560 when I was advising the Indian parliamentarians on the need for 77 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:29.610 a new law. I cherish the time when, even after the Indian 78 00:04:29.610 --> 00:04:32.460 cyber law got passed, I was one of the first people to go back 79 00:04:32.460 --> 00:04:35.700 to government and say, it's time that you should amend the law. I 80 00:04:35.700 --> 00:04:38.430 cherish the time when I testified before the Indian 81 00:04:38.430 --> 00:04:41.940 parliament on three different occasions as subject expert on 82 00:04:41.940 --> 00:04:44.640 the need for amending into the Indian Information Technology 83 00:04:44.640 --> 00:04:48.660 Act. I cherish my work with international organizations like 84 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:51.780 UNESCO, where I worked extensively on the cyber issues 85 00:04:51.990 --> 00:04:54.960 and also with the International Telecommunications Union. I 86 00:04:54.960 --> 00:04:58.830 cherish the day when I actually conducted this day-long program 87 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:02.280 for the electric judges of the International Court of Justice 88 00:05:02.460 --> 00:05:06.270 at the Hague, along with the International Telecommunications 89 00:05:06.270 --> 00:05:11.010 Union. I cherish my speaking at the various World Society and 90 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.940 World Summit on the Information Society, OASIS summits that have 91 00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:17.670 happened over the years at Geneva where I've been 92 00:05:17.670 --> 00:05:20.940 addressing. I cherish the time when I've been working on the 93 00:05:20.940 --> 00:05:24.660 legalities of cybersecurity and chairing the International 94 00:05:24.660 --> 00:05:28.260 Commission on cybersecurity law. I really enjoy the time when I'm 95 00:05:28.260 --> 00:05:31.110 actually now heading the artificial intelligence law hub, 96 00:05:31.290 --> 00:05:34.710 and working on the legalities of artificial intelligence. I 97 00:05:34.710 --> 00:05:36.480 cherish the time I've been working with various 98 00:05:36.570 --> 00:05:39.660 international stakeholders on different aspects of cyber law, 99 00:05:40.140 --> 00:05:44.220 cybercrime law. And of course, I cherish the fact that I've been 100 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:46.440 able to create an online platform called 101 00:05:46.440 --> 00:05:50.430 cyberlawuniversity.com, which is an online cyber law education 102 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:54.420 platform. And I cherish the fact that I've done about 44 courses 103 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:58.890 with that particular platform. And over three years, 27,500 104 00:05:58.890 --> 00:06:02.910 professionals from 174 countries, speaking 53 national 105 00:06:02.910 --> 00:06:06.060 languages have already done those courses. And these figures 106 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:09.600 are telling me that there's a need for much more awareness and 107 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.210 much more capacity building. So I think there's a lot of work 108 00:06:12.210 --> 00:06:14.730 that's cut out, but each day is a day to cherish. 109 00:06:15.090 --> 00:06:17.160 Geetha Nandikotkur: Wonderful! And you have had such vast 110 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.670 exposure to various international commissions and 111 00:06:20.700 --> 00:06:24.210 education. So coming to the interesting point that you 112 00:06:24.210 --> 00:06:27.510 raised. You have done so many courses, the university part of 113 00:06:27.510 --> 00:06:30.810 it, what are the relevant courses that today's 114 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:36.930 cybersecurity industry needs, and where is India lagging, and 115 00:06:36.990 --> 00:06:40.440 as compared to other international areas, regions? 116 00:06:40.470 --> 00:06:42.780 Pavan Duggal: I believe cybersecurity has moved center 117 00:06:42.780 --> 00:06:46.890 stage. And that being so, nobody really wants to today do a 118 00:06:46.890 --> 00:06:50.460 course, for academic purposes or for academic knowledge or gyaan. 119 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:56.010 Everybody wants to know, what is in it for me? And how am I going 120 00:06:56.010 --> 00:06:59.190 to benefit from it? So the way I've structured these courses, 121 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:02.190 I've kept in mind the working professional, who doesn't have 122 00:07:02.190 --> 00:07:05.040 time, who doesn't have much patience, but who requires to 123 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.610 update his skill sets. So I've created those courses, keeping 124 00:07:08.610 --> 00:07:11.880 the practical strategies and approaches that a common 125 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:15.720 professional needs to know as part of his professional journey 126 00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:20.790 as part of a professional and as part of being an aware cyber 127 00:07:20.790 --> 00:07:24.600 stakeholder. So that's the main focus. I've structured those 128 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.150 courses in that regard. And that's the reason why, you know, 129 00:07:27.150 --> 00:07:30.030 I tested waters. I said, look, cyber law is such a niche area, 130 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:33.180 why would somebody be interested in this, and I started testing 131 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:35.550 some of these courses. And little did I realize that there 132 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:38.130 is actually a need. So today when I'm talking about 133 00:07:38.130 --> 00:07:42.060 cybersecurity, people have to realize that now, cybersecurity 134 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:45.480 is a shared responsibility. You cannot mess around on your 135 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:48.840 phone, have a cybersecurity breach, and expect that your 136 00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:51.930 company or your government is going to be responsible for the 137 00:07:51.930 --> 00:07:54.660 same. Somewhere down the line, we will all have to take 138 00:07:54.870 --> 00:07:58.200 cumulative responsibility for protection and preservation of 139 00:07:58.200 --> 00:08:01.740 cybersecurity, and number of my courses are specifically 140 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:04.380 focused. I've done, I'm providing an international 141 00:08:04.380 --> 00:08:07.710 certification course on cybersecurity law, where we look 142 00:08:07.710 --> 00:08:10.260 at the international legal principles impacting 143 00:08:10.260 --> 00:08:14.370 cybersecurity, and how different nations have started coming up 144 00:08:14.490 --> 00:08:18.060 with distinctive national laws on cybersecurity and the 145 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:20.550 legalities. Also I have tied up with the National Law 146 00:08:20.550 --> 00:08:24.450 University, Odisha, and are offering a diploma course on 147 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:27.510 cyber law and cybersecurity, which is a short one-month 148 00:08:27.510 --> 00:08:30.270 course. But that course can really keep you up to date with 149 00:08:30.270 --> 00:08:31.200 what you really want to do. 150 00:08:31.410 --> 00:08:33.600 Geetha Nandikotkur: So Pavan, can you highlight some of the 151 00:08:34.140 --> 00:08:36.930 three passions that you can discuss with us? 152 00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:38.820 Pavan Duggal: I think, in cyberspace, I've got one 153 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:42.870 passion, and that is the passion to write. Every morning, I get 154 00:08:42.870 --> 00:08:45.870 up in the morning, and for one hour, I do nothing but writing, 155 00:08:46.290 --> 00:08:49.440 dictating to my computer. And when you do that, for the last 156 00:08:49.470 --> 00:08:52.680 more than 25 odd years, no wonder you will end up authoring 157 00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:56.730 179 books on different aspects of cyber law and cybersecurity. 158 00:08:56.730 --> 00:09:00.180 So that's a big passion. Because when I started, I was looking 159 00:09:00.180 --> 00:09:03.660 for books, and I couldn't find anything off the shelf. And 160 00:09:03.660 --> 00:09:07.110 that's the thing I realized that this is a huge paucity area that 161 00:09:07.110 --> 00:09:11.970 you need to focus on. The second passion that I really get fired 162 00:09:11.970 --> 00:09:15.750 with is the need for more capacity building. Because I 163 00:09:15.750 --> 00:09:20.610 find that you have been blessed enough because you know the 164 00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:23.430 cutting edge of the law and technology. But large number of 165 00:09:23.430 --> 00:09:27.510 stakeholders still are pretty much clueless on how the cyber 166 00:09:27.510 --> 00:09:30.660 law as a discipline impacts the day-to-day life. So I teach 167 00:09:30.660 --> 00:09:34.290 regularly at various institutions. I teach at the 168 00:09:34.290 --> 00:09:37.500 National Judicial Academy in Bhopal, the National Police 169 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:41.700 Academy in Hyderabad. I go and do teachings for governmental 170 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:45.420 organization of governments outside India on basic 171 00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:49.410 principles concerning cyber law and cybersecurity. Yet another 172 00:09:49.410 --> 00:09:53.370 passion that I think I really get inspired is how can one 173 00:09:53.520 --> 00:09:58.890 disseminate more effective administration of justice to the 174 00:09:58.920 --> 00:10:03.660 affected persons. So we create a helpline, where you know, all 175 00:10:03.660 --> 00:10:07.110 these people who find that the monies are gone, we assist them, 176 00:10:07.230 --> 00:10:10.050 help them on how they can actually get their monies back. 177 00:10:10.170 --> 00:10:13.560 In number of cases, we can even also pro bono fight on their 178 00:10:13.560 --> 00:10:17.400 behalf and represent to the concerned organizations so that 179 00:10:17.400 --> 00:10:20.820 they can get their monies back. Because giving voice to the 180 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:24.180 voiceless is one philosophy that has, you know, really 181 00:10:24.210 --> 00:10:28.080 substantially impacted me. And finally, I get inspired by the 182 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:32.160 words of Mahatma Gandhi. Mahatma Gandhi said, I want to keep all 183 00:10:32.160 --> 00:10:35.970 the windows in all the four walls of my house open, so that 184 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.640 the air from all the four directions can come in and 185 00:10:38.640 --> 00:10:42.420 populate my home. I think that's what I'm actually concerned 186 00:10:42.420 --> 00:10:45.450 about. I believe in cross pollination. I believe the more 187 00:10:45.450 --> 00:10:48.480 you can learn from other people's experience as 188 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.540 countries, the more you can leapfrog in the context of 189 00:10:51.540 --> 00:10:54.750 technology, and the more you can customize other person's 190 00:10:54.750 --> 00:10:57.930 learning, as per your own specific requirements, is the 191 00:10:57.930 --> 00:11:00.900 best way forward, as you want to go forward because technology is 192 00:11:00.900 --> 00:11:04.440 ruthless. It's moving at a fascinating speed, maybe at the 193 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:08.130 speed of light. And the legal frameworks are just not adequate 194 00:11:08.280 --> 00:11:11.130 to deal with the same. Hence, the quicker we are able to come 195 00:11:11.130 --> 00:11:15.450 up with more cogent, effective mechanisms in this regard, is 196 00:11:15.450 --> 00:11:16.620 very helpful. 197 00:11:17.220 --> 00:11:20.010 Geetha Nandikotkur: So finally, Pavan, how do you see the value 198 00:11:20.010 --> 00:11:21.510 of a forum such as CyberEdBoard? 199 00:11:22.710 --> 00:11:25.410 Pavan Duggal: I believe a forum like CyberEdBoard is a 200 00:11:25.410 --> 00:11:29.460 remarkable initiative. Why? Because in this ecosystem, there 201 00:11:29.460 --> 00:11:32.100 are different initiatives. But this initiative is different. 202 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:35.490 Why? You're focusing on ultimately creating more 203 00:11:35.490 --> 00:11:40.920 capacity building in that area of the population, which are 204 00:11:40.920 --> 00:11:43.740 going to be leaders, who are going to lead others by their 205 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:47.550 example. And it's not a notion to say the leaders don't require 206 00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:50.700 training. Leaders require training, the leaders require 207 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:53.670 hand-holding, and they also require an appropriate platform 208 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.700 and a platform that they can trust. They can be confident 209 00:11:56.700 --> 00:11:59.790 about it. I believe this particular CyberEdBoard is a 210 00:11:59.790 --> 00:12:03.330 fantastic initiative, from the perspective of the community, 211 00:12:03.510 --> 00:12:05.760 from the perspective of professionals where they can 212 00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:09.510 actually go ahead, interact with other stakeholders, learn from 213 00:12:09.510 --> 00:12:12.810 each other's experience and ultimately contribute back to 214 00:12:12.810 --> 00:12:14.820 the further growth of the cyber ecosystem. 215 00:12:15.870 --> 00:12:18.300 Geetha Nandikotkur: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing 216 00:12:18.300 --> 00:12:22.230 some of your perspectives and also experiences as part of your 217 00:12:22.230 --> 00:12:22.710 journey. 218 00:12:23.160 --> 00:12:25.020 Pavan Duggal: Thank you, Geetha. It's been a pleasure being with 219 00:12:25.020 --> 00:12:26.190 you on your show. Thanks. 220 00:12:27.270 --> 00:12:29.670 Geetha Nandikotkur: This is Geetha Nandikotkur for ISMG. 221 00:12:29.760 --> 00:12:30.810 Thanks for watching.